Elektrifizierung der Logistik: Ist Reichweite das größte Problem? - mit Marc Hellmann-Regouby von Electrofleet (DD#13)

00:00:06: Welcome Mark here at Slash Y. Thank you for your time that we are talking today about the

00:00:11: topic

00:00:12: electrification of logistics, why range is not the biggest problem?

00:00:19: I will start with an introduction.

00:00:22: According to the Federal Environment Agency over eighty percent of truck journeys in Germany Are shorter than three hundred kilometers.

00:00:32: In other words they can actually be electrified without any problems.

00:00:37: Despite this, the appropriation of electric trucks is still less than two percent.

00:00:42: The reason?

00:00:43: Not just infrastructure but also lack of digital integration fragmentary systems and a lack of standards.

00:00:50: The German road haulage association has been called for years we need open platforms not data centers.

00:00:58: This topic today with a conversation from Mark from Electrofleet.

00:01:02: how can the switch to each works really succeed.

00:01:05: And what the digital tools does sustainability, logistics meet?

00:01:10: Mark

00:01:11: welcome here.

00:01:12: and The first question What do you think has happened in the immobility In the last ten years especially in Logistics but also in general?

00:01:23: Yeah no it's thank-you by the way for inviting me To talk about my favorite subject.

00:01:30: Wow!The Last Ten Years have been absolutely transformative.

00:01:34: I remember sitting in the back of a van on road trip with my computer trying to calculate projections for Tesla's shipments.

00:01:44: And at that point, they were around thirty thousand cars per year and now we'll hit two million this year.

00:01:54: Tesla is not only one but it was just a barometer!

00:01:58: It's incredible that we are now sitting at a place where it is a viable technology.

00:02:05: It's a viable product, it can work and does work.

00:02:08: people get around every day you know for our household.

00:02:12: We drive electric everywhere we go So its something thats proven.

00:02:19: Now the question of logistics right?

00:02:22: Its little bit harder than moving your family across town to grocery store And we have look What the next steps are and we.

00:02:32: that's the subject of our conversation, which will be very long.

00:02:34: I'm sure

00:02:37: Yeah but When you're talking about bringing your family by car to the next point Do know what the range was for the first e-card?

00:02:47: Ah good question it depends Which century were talking about.

00:02:50: right in the eighteen hundreds there were actually.

00:02:54: The early cars were battery electric based on lead-acid batteries.

00:03:00: And they were amazing vehicles, but then Mr.

00:03:05: Benz and Mr.

00:03:06: Ford decided gasoline was the way to go and did mass production made it work right?

00:03:14: So you can fast forward to the nineteen nineties.

00:03:17: General Motors tried again with EV one and an ugly car But it got the job done.

00:03:27: And amazingly, even in the nineties had almost a hundred kilometers of range which is unthinkable because that's thirty years ago right?

00:03:38: We think we've come along way but they were quite sophisticated at this time.

00:03:43: Yeah cool.

00:03:44: So when we are talking about The fleets of companies maybe why is there electrification or fleets so complex?

00:03:56: I knew he would come around to opening Pandora's box.

00:03:59: It is complex and partially because fleets tend to move around all at once, so let's say... Let's talk about a corporate car fleet.

00:04:10: you have a thousand employees in the parking lots full of cars and they all want to charge while their work right?

00:04:16: Because it's part Car contract is charge at work and enjoy it in your free time.

00:04:23: That's a huge collision of demand all at one time.

00:04:28: It's planable, its expected And so it's manageable But it means giant change in infrastructure.

00:04:36: I think that's the biggest shift right?

00:04:38: So in Germany just as an example there are three point three million registered trucks on the road today.

00:04:45: If we electrify All of them It's going to be roughly on top twenty percent of our current annual demand.

00:04:54: Our annual demands in Germany right now is varies between four hundred fifty and five hundred terawatt hours a year.

00:05:00: Mm-hmm it will Be at least another hundred terawatts probably more I'm being conservative.

00:05:07: On top of that, so first we have to Generate the somehow.

00:05:11: second We have to get into those locations And third?

00:05:16: price it in an economical way.

00:05:18: And that's the challenge.

00:05:21: Okay, and when we have a different point of perspective what role does software play on the fleet management for electric vehicles?

00:05:30: So this is where we come in.

00:05:32: We think there was more economic ways to do it right ?

00:05:37: We all think about Electric Vehicles In The Way Maybe We Treat Our Own EV We Get Home We Plug It In.

00:05:44: We Don't Think About Market Conditions We don't think about weather conditions.

00:05:48: Uh, we just plug it in and let the utility Think About all of things behind getting electrons into that battery.

00:05:57: When you have a fleet Of twenty thirty forty fifty trucks You will think about because if you leave That risk at the socket with The electric company They'll charge for your risk because your demand profile has changed.

00:06:17: And they're used to serving this beautiful curve where you come in and turn on the lights, then the copy machines... ...and you go out and you turn off the lights of the copy machine's.. ..you are very predictable and safe.

00:06:30: Well when we look at this twenty percent potential demand increase trucks E-trucks will represent a larger demand than data centers right?

00:06:42: concerned about data centers and we think it's an amazing opportunity, data centers hum along at a very fixed base load like demand.

00:06:50: You come in plug-in twenty trucks at the end of day.

00:06:53: forty truck fifty trucks you're talking to small cities worth of demand hitting the grid all at once.

00:07:00: that is reason software so important.

00:07:02: We need look basically everything.

00:07:07: So maybe I won't put too much detail right now that feel free to ask.

00:07:12: but The most important Aspects are what?

00:07:17: Are the performance characteristics of that track?

00:07:19: when does it need to be on the road again?

00:07:21: at what state-of-charge?

00:07:23: What route is it driving tomorrow?

00:07:25: because if you are an owner Of that asset, the best way To get more for your money.

00:07:34: Is to keep it on the Road.

00:07:36: And if the solution is park it for twelve hours and don't touch, you're impacting utilization.

00:07:44: You just took half a day of potentially useful life out-of-play which effectively doubles cost per kilometer on that asset.

00:07:55: so its all about utilisation maximization.

00:08:00: So what your talking about?

00:08:02: when I have look at tools & systems are needed to optimally manage charging times, route planning and energy consumption.

00:08:12: Yeah Let's work backwards from root planning because that's everything right?

00:08:15: And so if you are a fleet operator or truck operator.

00:08:19: You have two choices...you can either continue operations the way they exist today in a diesel world and Adapt your charging to meet how you've constructed your routes Or B, you can redesign your operations to match the new reality of charging.

00:08:40: What are that potential?

00:08:42: Risks of doing that while you upset your operations right so it's something?

00:08:46: or You have to think really hard about what other potential rewards.

00:08:49: You could better match your charging times To lower cost electricity Times during a day.

00:08:57: The worst thing you could possibly do is charge your trucks From six to eight p.m in the evening or at six two eight a.m In the morning.

00:09:07: those are our two peak periods of demand.

00:09:10: you will more than double your electricity cost by doing that.

00:09:16: and The minutes people say oh, I've got a fixed price for my energy provider.

00:09:20: But the minute you go from that beautiful smooth curve To these bubbles out here in the highest-priced hours You look at a phone call.

00:09:28: It's time to renegotiate because you have created a lot of cost and a lot risk.

00:09:33: And they've designed those contracts carefully, the minute that you break out of that usage curve They are right to call.

00:09:40: it would say Would You Like To Renegotiate?

00:09:42: or We Will Renegotiate?

00:09:46: And Are There Best Practices on How Companies Have Successfully Converted Their Fleets ?

00:09:53: There are early indications.

00:09:56: So I think The Holy Grail That everybody talks about is TCO total cost of ownership.

00:10:02: It's the cost of that asset itself, The truck itself.

00:10:06: it's a cost to maintenance.

00:10:07: its cost insurance tolls driver Fuel.

00:10:12: of course this is your biggest Cost in both cases And you put all of those together?

00:10:19: what Is the comparison of diesel two electric?

00:10:23: and we are now at a point in terms of best practices.

00:10:28: you want to lower costs.

00:10:29: Why would change if we don't have a lower cost?

00:10:32: We all wanna help the environment, improve sustainability but challenge for logistics world is it's very low margin business and they can make choices uneconomic choices I'll put that way.

00:10:48: wasteful choice was other word i'm thinking of.

00:10:50: so there has be an economic justification.

00:10:58: Yes, you want to be sustainable?

00:11:00: No.

00:11:01: You can't afford to do

00:11:02: it?".

00:11:03: Let's work backwards from the total cost of operation in that electric vehicle and see if we can get down below

00:11:10: diesel.".

00:11:10: And there needs to be significantly below-diesel If your at parody.

00:11:14: its expensive change operating model right?

00:11:17: Your retraining people changing maintenance scheme Changing your rescue truck go out help Used to carry a can of diesel.

00:11:28: Now, you carry a battery.

00:11:30: How do you rescue one of those trucks?

00:11:32: How to replace

00:11:33: them?".

00:11:34: So thinking through all that is the cost and retooling your organization And so our goal was get total cost ownership The delta...the savings low enough or higher enough savings That it justifies change in your organization.

00:11:52: Okay

00:11:55: Maybe Can I go back to the route planning managed charging times, because that's really interesting from a software perspective.

00:12:03: You mind?

00:12:04: Of course!

00:12:04: Okay so...I distracted myself on that topic.

00:12:09: So route planning once you've made the choice whether you continue operating as if you had diesel but converted it into electric or optimizing your operations for electric then route planning is super important and integrating with your customer demand which always comes first right.

00:12:25: show up when the customer wants to ship something and then ship it where they want it go.

00:12:30: So behind that, we have to plug into the transport management system.

00:12:35: It's super important!

00:12:36: And we've got some great components in some great partners that allow us to plug-in to that predict what route or tour vehicle is going do next day... Where it even has telemetry to look at?

00:12:51: What is current state of charge?

00:12:52: Is what it's expected arrival time and expect the state-of-charge will be when it arrives at the depot or one Of our charging facilities.

00:13:00: then we block that charger for a period of time.

00:13:05: That matches that trucks route schedule.

00:13:08: And because it was predicted We've already bought the energy required to charge that vehicle For x amount of time from the grid, so but really cool software opportunity then is behind that.

00:13:23: What happens when reality hits, what happens when the world changes?

00:13:27: So and it goes back to the project we've worked on together as always adjusting to reality you have a plan And do I have actual?

00:13:35: so that deviation is cost.

00:13:37: so The software is that we built together Is the core of responding to that Deviation.

00:13:43: so truck got stuck in a traffic jam On the A one right, so it's going to be an hour late.

00:13:49: guess what We bought a block of energy to charge that truck, but we now have do something with.

00:13:55: And if you're looking at it in a silo You say I'm gonna sell that energy or get rid of it somehow But because of the tool we built together?

00:14:21: So maybe that's a good point for the next question.

00:14:24: If, for example, a freight forwarder or logistic service provider wants to electrify its fleet?

00:14:31: Where do you start?

00:14:33: what questions Do You Need To Ask Yourself?

00:14:36: There are some pioneers doing some amazing things.

00:14:39: If you follow Electro Trucker on YouTube, Tobias Wagner works with Nano Jensen Freight Forter or a trucking company and they've been very aggressive in adding electric trucks to their fleet And for them it's about efficiency and cost.

00:14:58: As far as there concern They're quite happy With the impact of operations because it equals savings And we're working with a lot of trucking fleets right now to ask those exact questions.

00:15:13: The low-hanging fruit, of course is regular line hulls or regular routes that you run every day maybe...you run it ten times a day because its the short distance.

00:15:23: It's so easy!

00:15:24: Its just in no brainer Easily done well within range today vehicles which currently your talking five hundred kilometers range for the latest trucks, which are rolling off-the line.

00:15:37: You can get a lot of business done with a truck with five hundred kilometers in range.

00:15:41: then it becomes a planning challenge right?

00:15:44: When do you charge?

00:15:46: how does that fit into the driver's brakes and In the location?

00:15:50: so one of those challenges in fleet electrification is what Does The Other End Of The Route Look Like?

00:15:58: So if If You're Doing Return To Base That's beautiful, because you charge at your own depot.

00:16:05: They go out they use energy and come back then they charge up.

00:16:09: if You're doing a depo to depot so moving from one warehouse To another It's very predictable that you are in control of the infrastructure.

00:16:18: both ends.

00:16:19: If Your Then Looking At Customer Locations Especially Ones Which Change Regularly Than You Have To Do Some Planning than it Becomes Really Important To Know What Your Charging Options Are in the vicinity of that customer, and whether you're putting yourself at a difficulty or higher cost by using that infrastructure.

00:16:39: So those are kind of three levels.

00:16:41: Okay so when you see different companies with different use cases what your talking about?

00:16:48: does it make sense for all logistic companies to electrify their fleet?

00:16:52: Without question absolutely!

00:16:55: It's an

00:16:55: easy... Yeah its matter-of-win right.

00:17:00: we are very confident based on both the actual experience that we have and the modeling we've been doing, and access to consumption data.

00:17:10: In fact it was just a brand new study done with Tesla Semi in

00:17:16: U.S.,

00:17:16: they're now below a kilowatt hour per mile even which is unheard of shocking.

00:17:29: At that level of efficiency, it is without question going to be the cheapest way to move goods around.

00:17:37: It's a matter of how and when And so there are lot investment.

00:17:42: There was a lot planning needs to go into this in.

00:17:44: we recognize that.

00:17:46: So last When I say we manage all the risks associated with electrification over your fleet We mean it?

00:17:52: Not only were electricity supplier or finance company and invest in the customer's facility, and spend millions to build up infrastructure on their property so that they don't have to have the upfront cost.

00:18:08: We take CAPEX and move it to OPEX just spread out over a long period usually life of vehicle because was one big barriers when we started talk lots of CFOs and fleet managers.

00:18:24: what's holding your back, what stopping you from doing this.

00:18:27: And they always said a payback period and upfront investment cost without fail?

00:18:34: They said we want to invest our capital in core business activities were not.

00:18:40: We're logistics company.

00:18:41: We're not an electric company So happy to have off balance sheet solutions which fit in with their operating model.

00:18:49: so when we have an outlook for the future If you were the sole project manager of The Energy Transition, what project milestones need to be in place?

00:19:00: by when order to fully electrify logistics and What hurdles would you have to overcome along the way?

00:19:08: Yeah That's a that's if-you-were God question Maybe?

00:19:14: Fortunately I'm not qualified to be god.

00:19:17: Uh yeah, that's that's a tough one.

00:19:21: um i Would say It is so easy to say why it can't happen.

00:19:34: My father-in-law always says, if you say you can't do it... You're right!

00:19:39: ...you just told your future all right?

00:19:43: Just like the opposite side of that Abraham Lincoln said If you want know the future create

00:19:48: it.

00:19:49: and So we have to stop saying I can't be done..it's academic one foot in front of the other.

00:19:59: And if you want to find reasons not do it, you will find them absolutely A lot.

00:20:05: people talked about hydrogen as a possibility and they delayed an investment in battery electric trucking thinking that Hydrogen was going be answer.

00:20:15: All economic indicators are clear It is NOT going to be Hydrogen.

00:20:20: It just won't.

00:20:21: its too complex Too expensive Unavailable inefficient It's.

00:20:27: you lose seventy percent of the energy by the time that the energy gets to the wheels Whereas electric trucking I think is ninety seven percent efficient.

00:20:36: Okay, so Which one would you choose?

00:20:42: So That's this for me.

00:20:45: That's the first milestone is belief and confidence.

00:20:50: You have to want To do it And then it's a question and win.

00:20:56: And that's where we can come in, and help because... Well I think about it a lot.

00:21:03: uh i don't know if you watch the old cowboy movies Where they're sitting around at a circular table playing poker and all these tough characters are in town and They get the feeling that somebody is cheating and everybody pulls out their gun And they're all looking at each other waiting for someone to make a move Someone to blink.

00:21:24: That's how it feels right now in the electrification industry, because you have OEMs manufacturing trucks and they've made huge investments.

00:21:33: And I really applaud them for doing this.

00:21:36: but their waiting for big orders to come so that they can achieve economies of scale lower price as a truck.

00:21:44: You got buyers saying these trucks are too expensive Holding their guns waiting for the OEM to blink saying these trucks are too expensive.

00:21:54: I'll buy when you lower the price.

00:21:56: Then you've got the utilities say, I love charging seventy cents per kilowatt hour at my public charging?

00:22:02: I'm not going to lower my price.

00:22:04: And so we're all in this standoff situation waiting for someone to blink.

00:22:09: So that were kind of dumb enough to walk into that table and blink.

00:22:13: We're just gonna put putting a stake in the ground saying we will lower your cost of electricity and we will invest in your infrastructure.

00:22:20: And now it's up to everybody else to come along, and now that we've Put a stake on the ground It's up everyone else to choose to join us.

00:22:29: Mark thank you for this picture.

00:22:32: Yeah very cool.

00:22:34: so what I learned our conversation is The biggest hurdle for electric trucks Is not the battery but the lack of interaction between hardware, software and operation.

00:22:46: The charging times, route planning, energy prices... ...and network utilization – if you don't have integrated solutions here….

00:22:53: …you lose efficiency and profitability!

00:22:58: Our conversation shows me that the future of logistics is eating at stake or the future in logistics is electric so only if systems talk to each other.

00:23:10: The good news is technology is there.

00:23:12: Now we need

00:23:14: courage

00:23:14: to open up the silo and rethink.

00:23:17: Mark, thank you that are here at SlashWire.

00:23:19: We're here for this big topic.

00:23:23: Thank-you for your time.

00:23:25: I hope it will meet again.

00:23:27: Thanks for opportunity!